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  • Komentar - Mislim da u do sadašnjem toku diskusije niko nije osporio da je Rjecina2 sistematski zloupotrebljavao ovlašćenja administratora. Prillikom zaključivanja ove diskusije bi se samo na osnovu toga mogao poslati zahtev meti da se ovom korisniku oduzmu admin ovlašćenja. Čak ni oni koji su !glasali protiv nisu osporili zloupotrebu ovlašćenja. Da bi se nekome za koga je konsezusom utvrđeno da sistematski krši admin ovlašćenja ista zadržala mora postojati mnogo čvrst osnov, po mogućstvu utemeljen u pravilima vikipedije. U dosadašnjoj raspravi su izneti sledeći argumenti protiv oduzimanja (parafraziraću uz rizik da sam pogrešio): "Rjecina2 jeste zloupotrebio admin ovlašćenja ali.....":
    • " zloupotrebe nisu dostigle neke dramatične razmere"
    • " u zloupotrebama ima i zastarelih, izvučenih iz naftalina i brzopletih"
    • "jednom se bio izvinio a i redovno priznaje greške"
    • " ne dopadaju mi se revolucionarna rešenja"
    • " ionako imamo premalo saradnika"
    • " nećemo valjda da budemo kao hr.wiki"
    • " ionako nije aktivan"
    • " na ovim prostorima je temperament takav"
    • " oduzimanje ovlašćenja stvara lošu atmosferu"
  • Ovi argumenti nisu dovoljno ubedljivi. Više puta sam isticao da Rjecina2 ne treba da ima admin ovlašćenja a posle brisanja Sovjetskog Saveza sam smatrao da ne treba da ima ni status korisnika. To što je zloupotrebio svoja ovlašćenja kada smo u bici na Rovinama imali različita mišljenja nema potrebe uzimati u obzir zbog ekspresno izraženog iskrenog kajanja i brojnih drugih primera. Delim neprijatno osećanje korisnika koji su !glasali protiv. I meni je ova atmosfera ružna. Korisnici koji su na svojoj koži osetili kako radi "lynch mob" slične stvari mogu lako da namirišu. Zbog toga se slažem sa Festina lente pristupom.

POV Railroad

  • Isolating the victim
  • Using a condescending or threatening tone.
  • Inserting hidden text that attempts to restrict editing without consensus.
  • Reverting edits without due consideration, explanation or discussion on the article talk page.
  • Giving cryptic responses to their opponent's attempts to discuss the reverted edits.
  • Dropping talk page policy "bombs" that cite an alphabet soup of policies and guidelines without citing applicable sections of the policy or guideline.
  • Misuse of policies and guidelines (for example: disallowing the addition of sourced content by citing WP:BURDEN which only applies to un-sourced content).
  • Baiting and goading their opponent to incite incivility or edit warring.
  • Making unsubstantiated accusations of advocacy, conflict of interest, and pushing a point of view.
  • Making accusations of disruptive behavior without providing diffs in violation of WP:NPA
  • Locating a sympathetic administrator who finds the 'bad editor' narrative convincing, and takes action, despite little or no evidence.
  • Canvassing like-minded editors to join the talk page and "gang up" on the opposing editor.
  • Forming a 'lynch mob' at a dispute resolution venue such as the administrator's noticeboard.



  • Robert Elsie opisuje kako se Ivan Kastriota izvinjavao Veneciji zbog antihrišćanskih vojnih pohoda njegovog sina Iskandera.

List of scholars who extensively wrote about this myth in works presented in the article:

  1. Artan Puto, Albanian historian, PHD studies at the European University Institute in the History and Civilization Department. (1999-2003).Title of the thesis “The idea of nation among the Albanian leaders during the National Movement (1878-1912)” : the myth of the "religious indifference," as Puto points out, "remains among the most resilient ideological constructs.... His paper on the international conference in London was titled: "“The religion of Albanian is Albanianism: a myth or an invention”".
  2. Diana Mishkova, Bulgarian historian who in the same work emphasized the above mentioned sentence about "the myth of the religious indifference" as ideological construct. She teaches Modern and Contemporary Balkan History at the University of Sofia. She has published extensively on comparative nineteenth-century Balkan history, history of nationalism and ethnic relations, modernization of Balkan societies in 19th – 20th centuries, history of modern political ideas. She has been a visiting professor in a number of universities in Europe and the US. Has received scholarships at the European University Institute, Florence, Italy; the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, Washington, D.C.; Andrew F. Mellon fellow at the Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin and the Institut für die Wissenschaften vom Menschen, Vienna; senior fellow and convener for the Sofia Academic Nexus research project. Academic Director of the Balkan Summer University, Plovdiv (1998-2000); member of the Board of Eminent Scholars, Centre for Democracy and Reconciliation in Southeast Europe, Thessaloniki, Greece. She has taught graduate courses at various universities in the Balkans such as the University of Athens, Sabanci University (Istanbul), University of Crete.
  3. Cecilie Endersen wrote: "A core myth, a basic narrative ... can be labeled as "The religion of the Albanian is Albanianism". This serves as template for other myths and narratives...". She wrote the following works connected with the topic of the article:
    1. "Do not look to church and mosque"? Albania's post-Communist clergy on nation and religion, In Andreas Rathberger (ed.), Religion und Kultur im albanischsprachigen Südosteuropa. Peter Lang Publishing Group. ISBN 9783631602959. kapittel. s 233 - 259
    2. Mellom Bosporos og Brussel : diskurser om religion og nasjon i Albania etter ateismen. Nordisk Østforum. ISSN 0801-7220. 24(4), s 353- 374
    3. Religiøse helter og nasjonens fiender: Islamske, ortodokse og katolske voktere av den albanske nasjonen. Chaos. Dansk-norsk tidsskrift for religionhistoriske studier. ISSN 0108-4453. 47, s 85- 124
    4. Tension as Taboo: Albania’s Self-Image as a Heaven of Religious Tolerance, In Tore Ahlbäck (ed.), Exercising Power: The Role of Religions in Concord and Conflict. Almqvist & Wiksell. ISBN 952-12-1811-8. KAPITTEL.
    5. Endresen, Cecilie (2010) Is the Albanian's religion really "Albanianism"? Religion and Nation according to Muslim and Christian leaders in Albania. PhD thesis. Oslo 
  4. Group of scholars wrote this work: Kressing, Frank Karl Kaser, Rajwantee Lakshman-Lepain, Antonia Young, Silvia Santer-Schriebel, Robert PichUer, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers (2002) Albania--a country in transition : aspects of changing identities in a South-East European country Baden-Baden: Nomos p. 40 ISBN 9783789076701 OCLC 50737195  and stated: Another important myth is weakness of Albanians' religious feelings.

  1. Serbia en.wiki - 8.500
  2. Srbija sr.wiki - 65
  3. Србија sr.wiki - 200
  4. Srbija hr.wiki - 464
  5. Srbija sh.wiki - 180

  1. Belgrade en.wiki -
  2. Beograd sr.wiki -
  3. Београд sr.wiki -
  4. Beograd hr.wiki -
  5. Beograd sh.wiki -


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George Castriota (1405-1468), now the Albanian national hero, stemmed from a family of landowners from the Dibër region in northeastern Albania who were no doubt of mixed Albanian- Slavic ancestry.” - Robert Elsie.

"Skanderbeg family came from the region of Dibra, which is now on the border between Albania and Macedonia. The area was inhabited in the Middle Ages both Albanian and Slavic tribes of the Orthodox Christian faith." - Oliver Schmitt Tages%20Anzeiger,%2025-2-2009..--Antidiskriminator 17:39, 9 februar-вељача 2011 (CET)

According to the WP:RS "The reliability of a source depends on context." Your question here does not present the context absolutely clear. Based on the section title from your link I will assume that your question is: "Are presented sources reliable sources for claim that Vojsava Kastrioti was Serbian, in the sense of ethnicity?" Please confirm if I am right.

I agree with Nuujinn that only contemporary sources and written by historians could be considered as RS in the context of claiming Vojsava's ethnicity, but that does not mean that all other sources presented here are not RS. Most of them are extensively used on wikipedia and referenced in historians works. Nuujinn only resumed WP:RS policy "Tertiary sources such as compendia, encyclopedias, textbooks, obituaries, and other summarizing sources may be used to give overviews or summaries, but should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion." That means that answer on your question is yes, tertiary sources that you presented are RS, but not for claim about her ethnicity, but for overview or summary (like within a list) about it.

I think that there are three sources you presented, which are written by contemporary historians and can be used as RS, but not for the claim that Vojsava was Serbian. Those are works of Oliver Jens Schmitt, Antonina Zhelyazkova and Olsi Jazexhi.--Antidiskriminator 09:54, 7 april-травањ 2011 (CEST)

[take it to RSN] sto je dalo ovo

| Komnen Bećirović, Serbian writer || Le Kossovo de l'absolu||Elle aporte des preuves incontestables, en particulier celles fournies par l'historien allemand Karl Hopf, sur l'origine Serbe de Georges Castriote dit Skanderbeg, heros national des Albanais, sur ses liens de parente avec les dynasties Serbes Tchenoyevitch et Brankovitch || [1] ||

I am afraid that you missed everything you could. Here is why I think so:
  1. Schmitt is not primary source. Any interpretation of his thought, intentions, opinion... would be WP:OR, regardless if it is done by wikipedia user or journalist of possibly non-neutral newspapers (Gazeta Albania).
  2. RSN rejected magazine as reliable sources about Vojsava. One user approached RSN and asked for opinion about reliability of one magazine which published the information with Schmitt's claim about Vojsava's ethnicity. That source was rejected and declared as not reliable. The explanation was:"don't use the magazine, use his book as the source".
  3. "Gazeta Albania non-authorized interview" published on January 24, 2009 contradicts everything Schmitt wrote in his books or said in his interviews published before or after this interview. Also, there was an authorized interview given a month later, published in (reputable and completely neutral) Swiss national daily newspaper Tagesanzeiger. In that interview in which it is emphasized that Schmitt claims that Skanderbeg's mother Vojsava was Serbian, member of Brankovići and that Kastrioti surname is probably derived from the Greek word.(Robelli, Enver (25) (German) Schweizer Historiker weckt den Ärger der Albaner Switzerland: Tagesanzeiger »Skanderbegs Mutter Vojsava war eine Serbin aus der einflussreichen Familie Brankovic. Der Name des Stammes Kastrioti leitet sich laut Schmitt vermutlich vom griechischen Wort «kastron» (Festung) ab« )